Rosetta now abandonware?
Message boards : Number crunching : Rosetta now abandonware?
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funkydude Send message Joined: 15 Jun 08 Posts: 28 Credit: 397,934 RAC: 0 |
No news/updates in regards to project progress - Folding@Home gives update almost daily No way to know what you've contributed to (Folding@Home puts their publications front and center. GPUGRID gives you badges according to each publication you contributed to). Continuing the above point: Rosetta does nothing to make you feel involved. e.g. Folding@Home now has a community Discord to keep contributors engaged to try and reduce the decline in users over time. Still no AVX support - Folding@Home has this Still no GPU support - Folding@Home has this Memory errors posted on forums is going unaddressed (See signal 11 for Linux/Max and ACCESS_VIOLATION for Windows.) In some cases, BSOD's are occurring when running these tasks at the same time as other heavy applications. Direct PMs unanswered, direct emails ignored, forum posts not replied to.
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William Albert Send message Joined: 22 Mar 20 Posts: 23 Credit: 1,069,070 RAC: 81 |
The Rosetta@home project is still active, work is being produced and accepted in a timely manner, and the project admins and moderators are active on the forums. Ralph@home is where Rosetta@home's project development and early testing happens, so you may want to follow that project if regular project communication is important to you. In terms of science, Rosetta tends to announce results on their Twitter account first, so you may want to follow that. Not all workloads are amenable to GPU or SIMD support, and adding that capability takes development time and effort. The project admins have commented on this multiple times in the past, stating that GPUs aren't suitable for the type of work that Rosetta@home currently does. Perhaps that will change in the future, but as for now, Rosetta@home is not the right project for you if your require GPU support. Some work units may have bugs. It happens, and they get corrected and the work re-issued. If you're seeing BSODs or kernel panics, chances are your hardware is unstable. The priority for many of these projects is first and foremost the science (or whatever work is being done). While it would be nice to get more frequent updates, the researchers and project admins still have to do their day jobs, and the more time that they spend on community engagement, the less time they have to handle the actual project work. Given that balance, I find the admin's community participation to be reasonable. |
mikey Send message Joined: 5 Jan 06 Posts: 1895 Credit: 9,174,569 RAC: 3,096 
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They are doing more relvent to todays stuff and that means small groups of tasks based of the cuurent tasks No news/updates in regards to project progress - Folding@Home gives update almost daily Read the News thread they are posting on Twitter, it's their project and they can post where they want too No way to know what you've contributed to (Folding@Home puts their publications front and center. GPUGRID gives you badges according to each publication you contributed to). Again read the News thread Continuing the above point: Rosetta does nothing to make you feel involved. e.g. Folding@Home now has a community Discord to keep contributors engaged to try and reduce the decline in users over time. Again read the News thread Still no AVX support - Folding@Home has this That requires programers that are expesniive and money is tight at every Boinc Project these days, even Seti shut down for lack of funding, have YOU donated to any Projects still around? Memory errors posted on forums is going unaddressed (See signal 11 for Linux/Max and ACCESS_VIOLATION for Windows.) According to this site it's a problem on your end "it's a memory access error, which is usually caused by bad hardware. ram, motherboard, cpu overheating, whatever." https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/what-is-a-signal-11-error-and-how-do-i-fix-this-109734/ Direct PMs unanswered, direct emails ignored, forum posts not replied to. If they took the time to chat with each and every person who PM'd an Admin someone would never get any work done. ALL Projects suggest you try asking your questions in the Forums and the Admins will read them as they have time and respond when others aren't giving the correct response. |
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Mod.Sense Volunteer moderator Send message Joined: 22 Aug 06 Posts: 4018 Credit: 0 RAC: 0 |
Project -> News & Articles about Rosetta https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/rah/rah_news_media.php Rosetta Moderator: Mod.Sense |
 yoerik Send message Joined: 24 Mar 20 Posts: 128 Credit: 169,525 RAC: 0 |
Project -> News & Articles about Rosetta to be fair - the last article listed there is from 2017. That's not up to date, in any sense of the term. |
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Bryn Mawr Send message Joined: 26 Dec 18 Posts: 393 Credit: 12,114,842 RAC: 4,200 
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Project -> News & Articles about Rosetta The last article detailing Rosetta in a journal was April 2nd - ok, maybe not daily but peer review is not daily :- https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_forum.php?id=202 |
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yoerik Send message Joined: 24 Mar 20 Posts: 128 Credit: 169,525 RAC: 0 |
Project -> News & Articles about Rosetta Huh? No clue what you're talking about. The OP is upset about a lack of communication from the project to us. This has nothing to do with peer-reviewed articles being published by the project, in a renowned medical journal. Mod.Sense pointed to the "News and Articles about Rosetta" Tab - I pointed out that the section they're pointing to is over 2 years out of date. Another argument about that is - this is not communication from the project to us volunteers, it's the news press discussing the project... making it useless to the point of this thread, even if it was up to date. This is a similar conversation that's started here: https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=13533&postid=96439 about the lack of communication between the project, and the volunteers - which is a fair conversation to have. Does this alleviate the apparent confusion? |
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Mod.Sense Volunteer moderator Send message Joined: 22 Aug 06 Posts: 4018 Credit: 0 RAC: 0 |
The OP also said "No way to know what you've contributed to". Peer reviewed papers are a major grouping of things they've contributed to. Rosetta Moderator: Mod.Sense |
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yoerik Send message Joined: 24 Mar 20 Posts: 128 Credit: 169,525 RAC: 0 |
The OP also said "No way to know what you've contributed to". Peer reviewed papers are a major grouping of things they've contributed to. All due respect - I'm not trying to start an argument - that addresses one of the several grievances that the OP was discussing. In addition, this does not change the fact that the link you provided includes none of Rosetta's publications - in fact, only news reports discussing Rosetta... which is over 2 years out of date, and the IPD's page is far more accurate https://www.ipd.uw.edu/in-the-media/ (that the page links to this URL does not fix that Rosetta's page states it's the "latest". Unless a user realizes that the IPD image is a link, they would think Rosetta hasn't made the news in over 2 years. The work published by the Baker Lab is here: https://www.bakerlab.org/index.php/publications/ Yes, this indicates that the project is doing work. It doesn't count as a communication to us, which is the overall issue of the thread. |
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sgaboinc Send message Joined: 2 Apr 14 Posts: 282 Credit: 208,966 RAC: 0 |
i think avx may be after all used, that may possibly come from the compiler optimizations. and gpus may be coming in an alternative app https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=13499&postid=95252#95252 we'd just need to be a little patience. anyway these days high core count processors like the Ryzen 3700x (and higher cpus e.g. Ryzen 3990X 64 core 128 threads ) and the recent Intel powerhouses e.g 9900k (and higher cpus, e.g. 10900K) sports extreme core counts and hyper threads. they run more powerful than various GPUs and it is running conventional cpu workloads, not those specialized workloads that need to be coded to use gpu features. they are spilling out boinc credits at world record speeds https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/top_hosts.php and run as fast as (and can be deemed faster than) supercomputers just a generation or 2 ago. with these high core count processors it may not be after all be good to push the extreme use of cpu resources such as avx as it may cause the processors to run too hot given the extreme core counts. using those features on all cores may force one to significantly cut down the run frequency to prevent temperatures from going too high, that would compromise on the efficient performance as well. in short i think r@h is still very much the state of the art. for after all r@h still remain as very few of the projects on earth that has produced non-trivial results https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=13702&postid=93153 |
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funkydude Send message Joined: 15 Jun 08 Posts: 28 Credit: 397,934 RAC: 0 |
Had another 3 errors on my main machine. 2 memory errors and a zip error: For some reason the task was trying to zip up task specific data from the project directory instead of the slots directory where the data actually is... The task was fully complete, but counted as an error because of its failure to zip the correct contents. Giving up for now and moving to WCG. (Posting there to keep threads clean and on topic) Rosetta is great but unfortunately for me it comes down to one thing: Wasting electricity on beta quality software (errors) instead of the project using Ralph for longer periods of test time. We all want to beat this together but wasting electricity isn't an option for me like it may be for others. |
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Bryn Mawr Send message Joined: 26 Dec 18 Posts: 393 Credit: 12,114,842 RAC: 4,200
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Project -> News & Articles about Rosetta And I pointed to the news section of this very forum to show that the project HAVE been communicating to US what the project has achieved far more recently than the 2017 you claim to be the last communication from them. |
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Grant (SSSF) Send message Joined: 28 Mar 20 Posts: 1684 Credit: 17,939,663 RAC: 23,014 
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I think the fact that the project heard & responded to the suggestion that writing things to the slot directories that didn't need to be there was un-necessary, both here in the forums & by deploying a new application, shows that they do take notice & respond. Grant Darwin NT |
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yoerik Send message Joined: 24 Mar 20 Posts: 128 Credit: 169,525 RAC: 0 |
Project -> News & Articles about Rosetta oh no. I'm not saying the project hasn't communicated since 2017. I'm saying the place Mod.Sense pointed to isn't communication with us for a start - another issue being that particular page has not been updated since 2017. |
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funkydude Send message Joined: 15 Jun 08 Posts: 28 Credit: 397,934 RAC: 0 |
I think the fact that the project heard & responded to the suggestion that writing things to the slot directories that didn't need to be there was un-necessary, both here in the forums & by deploying a new application, shows that they do take notice & respond. Sorry, but I disagree. The issue with directories should not have had to wait until 2020 and a pandemic to resolve. The only reason they added HTTPS protection was because of pressure from a big company. Prior to that, no thought about protecting users. Ultimately since those (good) changes were implemented, the forums have been void of all interaction. Poor quality tasks are regularly being allowed into the public. From failed zips to nonsensical work names. The zip fails are evidence that tasks aren't even run on a test machine before being thrown at the public without any real care. Users here (like you) try their best to post about faulty tasks and those tasks end up being purged before anyone responsible even looks at them. Processing a task for 8+ hours only to have it fail to zip itself, something that would have been caught had it been tested prior to deployment, is an egregious waste of electricity. |
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[VENETO] boboviz Send message Joined: 1 Dec 05 Posts: 1994 Credit: 9,625,551 RAC: 6,845
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to be fair - the last article listed there is from 2017. That's not up to date, in any sense of the term. This is one the most complete collection of scientific pubblications of Rosetta@Home. And they restart to be active on Twitter. |
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[VENETO] boboviz Send message Joined: 1 Dec 05 Posts: 1994 Credit: 9,625,551 RAC: 6,845
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i think avx may be after all used, that may possibly come from the compiler optimizations. Clean the code and optimize it is a near future. Remote future may be AI and Gpu. |
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Tomcat雄猫 Send message Joined: 20 Dec 14 Posts: 180 Credit: 5,386,173 RAC: 0 |
I think the fact that the project heard & responded to the suggestion that writing things to the slot directories that didn't need to be there was un-necessary, both here in the forums & by deploying a new application, shows that they do take notice & respond. It also took them until 2020 and a pandemic to fix their credit system. Because apparently nobody seems to have brought that issue up in all those years. (you can't fix bugs you aren't aware of). I'll address your concerns, as a fellow user, point by point. The issue with directories should not have had to wait until 2020 and a pandemic to resolve. Agreed partially, this is a simple optimization that somehow took years to implement. However, I'll make the argument here that these optimization only became necessary rather recently. I've never had issues with Rosetta@home eating up too much disk space in the past, ever tried running LHC@home or Einstein@home? Rosetta tasks only starting gobbling up RAM and disc space recently (to my experience), they used to take surprisingly little disk space per task. There is also the fact that high core count CPU have really only recently become truly affordable, meaning you could only run so many tasks. You generally don't put features into software that you don't need. New features take time to implement, and add new points of failure. The only reason they added HTTPS protection was because of pressure from a big company. Prior to that, no thought about protecting users. I don't know much about HTTPS vs HTTP. So I won't give my opinion on this. Ultimately since those (good) changes were implemented, the forums have been void of all interaction. No, the forums have pretty active. Admin and the Mods have been pretty active on the forums, too. You may have to search for their replies, but they are there for many issues. Hell, even my comparatively small, edge-case, and petty concern of extremely long-running tasks returning very unstable and sometimes absurdly low credits got attention and was fixed quite quickly. Poor quality tasks are regularly being allowed into the public. From failed zips to nonsensical work names. Yes, there have been quite a few batches of bad WUs, but you have to take into consideration that: a) There are quite a lot more WUs nowadays, since SETI@home going into hibernation and the COVID situation has brought this project a tsunami of users. That means a lot more hardware and software combinations, plus a lot more stuff being hurriedly put in the software to take advantage of the increased computational power. More features + more users + exponentially more bugs. Bugs that need to be encountered before they can be fixed. b) A lot of the tasks here are quite time-sensitive (hence the short deadlines), meaning less time fore testing. As for nonsensical work names... I don't think anything has changed. The zip fails are evidence that tasks aren't even run on a test machine before being thrown at the public without any real care. Well, there ARE test machines and testers. There exists a side project called Ralph@home, which serves as the testing site for this project. There are also quite a few updates regarding new software releases, new features, and tweaks there as well. Issue is, there aren't enough users there to cover all the various hardware and software (OS, OS version, BOINC version, etc) combinations here. Users here (like you) try their best to post about faulty tasks and those tasks end up being purged before anyone responsible even looks at them. It's (probably) better to copy the Stderr output into the bug reports. You also have to remember that the tasks being purged doesn't not mean they won't be looked at. Processing a task for 8+ hours only to have it fail to zip itself, something that would have been caught had it been tested prior to deployment, is an egregious waste of electricity. Agreed, also feels like a punch to the face. I've had tasks running for 36 hours, only to have them fail to zip themselves. Turns out my issue was that my BOINC client was out-of-date. |
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Sid Celery Send message Joined: 11 Feb 08 Posts: 2125 Credit: 41,249,734 RAC: 9,368
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Poor quality tasks are regularly being allowed into the public. From failed zips to nonsensical work names. Ok, here goes... on this and whatever comment about failed tasks being "an egregious waste of electricity"... I generally keep this back because a lot of people get offended by it, even though imo it's been plainly and obviously true from day one The reason given for the Seti project 'going into hibernation' or whatever reason they gave is proof of the idea I've always had that every single second of the time spent on tasks and every single penny spent on hardware and every bit of attention given to that project has now confirmed it was the absolute confirmation in every way, shape and form of being "an egregious waste of electricity". Apparently you can fool all the people all the time. It's now official. Regarding task failure here. It would seen rather obvious to me, but apparently not to others like the OP, that the object of the tasks here are toward finding a solution to a novel virus - novel here meaning new and never seen before. The only reason it can be attempted here is because of the work that's been done since the project launched in 2005 and no doubt in many other ways before it could be attempted computationally. In a way you could see it as trying to model life itself. Lots of approaches have been taken before we got to this point, but far from all of them. So, for someone in their bedroom or cellar or home office to make some snide comment about a task failure, for any one of a million reasons, is more than ignorant. I've glanced at some of the reports being offered above and I barely understand 50% of the words being juggled around, let alone the sentences they've been formed into. And then I realise there's a tier of people who are so expert in the subject that they not only understand the words and sentences but the significance of them. Does someone need to say out loud that this project is running at the cutting edge of research into a current, live deadly disease? And if there's a stumble along the way it can hardly be a surprise. If it was that easy everything would be solved already. So, yeah, failed gzips are annoying and should be resolved, but the 'harm' done at the user level is almost none. I'm going to report a few today (the reason I'm here right now) but for the project's benefit, not mine. And again, by comparison, Seti maybe never had any failed tasks, but the successful running of them was literally of no significance because they've admitted no-one ever looked at them, nor did they find anything in the whole time the project ran, so really, who was being served? I guess it's comparatively easy to issue a task that can complete successfully and achieve the square root of nothing. A bit harder to issue tasks never seen before and trying to prevent something that's killed an extra quarter of a million people in the last 2 months alone. Yeah, so equivalent I guess. And on the naming of a series of tasks, it really doesn't matter at all. I've got one here titled "yournamehere_out_file_0507_d1a75a_v6_4AS_pb_ASW0_TERM20_length45_0018_fragments_abinitio_SAVE_ALL_OUT_929944_294_0". it's really quite funny that only the human-readable part is the part being complained about, and all the rest is ignored, while in reality it's the least relevant bit of it. Would people be happier if that bit showed "Fred_Blogs"? Because that would be what's making the real difference, obviously. Someone here actually made a thread about that. Did they think for a second what it made them look like? Because, again, they may as well have titled that thread "I am a complete dork" and it would've made more sense. And this thread titled "Rosetta now abandonware?" is honestly no better than that. It's offensively stupid imo. And I'd take the same view if this was a thread in the Cafe rather than the actual Number Crunching part of the site. Some people don't have the sense to know when they've embarrassed themselves - more particularly when they keep hammering away at the most embarrassing bits for days on end.  
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Tomcat雄猫 Send message Joined: 20 Dec 14 Posts: 180 Credit: 5,386,173 RAC: 0 |
Poor quality tasks are regularly being allowed into the public. From failed zips to nonsensical work names. Well, even Seti had a lot issues with tasks before they went into hibernation. They had issues with their GPU apps either erroring out on certain driver/hardware combinations, or seemingly running properly but returning garbage results. On the CPU side, they struggled a lot with Android. One thing you have to remember is that the average BOINC cruncher isn't here for results or the science (only a small fraction of the populace can understand all of that). They are here either for the credits, or for the satisfaction that they are contributing to science without knowing much about it. This is kind of like how the average PC user knows very little about PCs, so much so that the major tech companies are continuously dumbing down their products to the chagrin of power users, or how the average investor knows very little about the project they're throwing money at. |
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Rosetta now abandonware?
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